Director Matt Reeves Dishes on Battinson, The Penguin, and His Nirvana-Coded Gotham

Devin Oktar Yalkin/The New York Times/Redux

I’ve written far too many words about 2008’s Cloverfield, the cult-classic, found-footage monster romp that reinvented movie marketing for the digital age. But you’re about to read an interview with the director of that movie, Matt Reeves, so I’m sure as hell not stopping now. Not even two minutes after the fifty-eight-year-old popped up on Zoom—about a week before the premiere of the HBO series (slash spin-off of his 2022 feature, The Batman), The Penguin, on which he serves as an executive producer—I had to ask about the trailer. Yes, that trailer.

If you’re unfamiliar: Cloverfield’s first preview, which premiered ahead of showings for 2007’s Transformers, didn’t even feature the title of the damn movie. Audiences saw clips of a birthday party from some dude’s camcorder, the Statue of Liberty’s head crashing into the middle of Manhattan, and the release date (1-18-08). The Internet wasn’t yet a place where you could Google answers to this sort of thing; it broke a lot of brains and went viral before you even called anything viral.

“We were still shooting the movie when Transformers came out over the Fourth of July,” Reeves remembers. “So my girlfriend and I went to the [theater] and we said, ‘Can you let us go in? Because actually there’s a trailer for something that I’m doing.’ And then we went in there and watched the audience respond. It was really cool. But that was so scary for me because we were so early in making the movie. We’re going like, ‘Oh my God, everyone is waiting to see what it is, and we’re still making this movie!’ ”

Fast-forward nearly two decades and—not to criminally breeze past his revered Planet of the Apes trilogy—Reeves has the keys to Gotham. In 2022, he debuted The Batman, which starred Robert Pattinson as the Caped Crusader. And Mr. Wayne’s notoriously hard-to-please fans…really…loved it? Pattinson flashed Batman’s detective chops, Zoë Kravitz shined as a wonderfully sly Catwoman, and Paul Dano delivered a QAnon Riddler who was downright chilling. In fact, the approval rating for Reeves’s Nirvana-coded Batman universe is so damn high that one of its characters—Colin Farrell’s Oz Cobb, aka the Penguin—is about to enjoy the small-screen treatment. Spoiler: Batman loyalists will love it, too. Its many triumphs include Farrell’s unhinged, Batman-fucked-with-Tony Soprano performance and more time in Reeves’s Gotham, which turns out to be far more intertwined with our world than you’d ever think.

In advance of The Penguin’s premiere on Max tonight, Reeves opened up about his Spielbergian origins, his inspiration for the upcoming Batman Part II, and what the hell possesses Colin Farrell when he becomes Oz Cobb.

This interview, presented in Reeves’s own words, has been edited and condensed for clarity.

The Origin Story When I was a kid, I made 8mm movies, like Spielberg. When I was thirteen or fourteen, I actually met J.J. Abrams because we were in an 8mm film festival—we became friends through that. And then we showed our films at a new art theater in Los Angeles. And Spielberg, who had that experience as a kid, was like, “I need to see these movies.” So they gave the program to him and he watched it. I heard back from his assistant at that time. She said, “He really enjoyed seeing the films. Thanks.” She called again six months later and said, “We just found all of these 8mm films. Because they’ve been in a hot basement for all this time, they need to be repaired. [Spielberg asked,] ‘Can you get them repaired?’ And I was like, ‘Who’s going to do that?’ He goes, ‘Those kids.’ ”

So the war movie that they’re making in The Fabelmans, that’s Escape to Nowhere. That’s one of the films that we re-spliced together for him. We’re just going, “These are Steven Spielberg’s 8mm films!” And we were these kids. It was mind-blowing.

From The Pallbearer to…Cloverfield?I was born in ’66. I grew up in a period of American film that really was inspiring. There were a lot of American directors who took other genres and subverted them. Chinatown is really a subversion of a noir. It’s funny, because those movies tremendously influenced me—but I don’t think I ever thought that I would be a genre filmmaker. I started in the vein of thinking that I wanted to be someone like Hal Ashby and make these kinds of sad comedies. My first film [The Pallbearer] didn’t light the world on fire. But it was very personal. When you spend your entire youth as a filmmaker, it’s like a bunch of kids who are getting together and they make their first album. If they’re twenty-five, it really took twenty-five years to make. I spent the first twenty-five years of my life making that first movie, and then that didn’t work. I started having opportunities where I was like, “What would it be if I tried to find a personal way into genre filmmaking?” And Cloverfield was one of those movies where it was like, “Okay, I need this to be about my anxiety. What would I do?”

The Inspiration for The Batman Part IIThe intense division that there is right now. On the one hand, you say it’s a thing going on in the United States—and obviously Gotham is an American city—but really it’s worldwide. There’s just tremendous division, the way that the world gets its information, its news. Everybody is in their own silo. That sense of the environment of today, where it’s just very easy for people to be completely separate and at complete odds—that’s definitely one of the things that we’re looking at in Gotham. Some of that is just the way that society is, but some of that is intentional—and to the degree that that’s intentional, and how that fits into the larger picture of what the motivations behind that might be, that’s one of the things that we’re exploring as well.

How Oz Cobb Scored the HBO TreatmentI always said, we’re going to continue [the Penguin’s] story. Initially, the idea was to continue it in the next film. And then when we were talking about doing shows, I was talking to [The Batman producer] Dylan Clark and [HBO heads] Casey Bloys and Sarah Aubrey. Casey said, “Look, I just want to say, I hope you’re not going to save the marquee characters for just the movies. This is HBO.” And I was like, “Okay, let me tell you what this kind of Scarface-esque story is.” It isn’t his origin story. It’s sort of like Batman’s story—the way that I did it—because there’d been so many origin tales. It’s the early days; it’s the origins of all of the rogues’ gallery characters. Because in the comics, those characters make themselves really in reaction to the arrival of this presence, this masked vigilante. So this is almost like a gangster movie. The idea was to see Oz reach for power in this moment.

The Metamorphosis of Colin Farrell Colin is a force of nature. He’s just an incredible actor. And the way [designer] Mike Marino transformed him, that unleashed him. My experience with him in the movie and the show is that I feel like that’s another person. It’s uncanny. There’s something incredible going on. The idea was that then we found [showrunner] Lauren [LeFranc], and we started talking about doing this character study—and to talk about that rise and the obstacles of that. And she came in and pitched the story for the pilot, which I loved. It was so illuminating to Oz’s vulnerabilities.

Macall Polay/HBO“My experience with him in the movie and the show is that I feel like that’s another person,” Reeves says of Colin Farrell’s Oz Cobb. “It’s uncanny. There’s something incredible going on.”

What Makes Reeves’s Rogues’ Gallery (and Batman) TickIt’s important to me that all of these characters are doing what they’re doing out of personal motivation. I love the comics, but sometimes there’s an oversimplification. One of the things that I thought that we could do in the movie, and then what we did in the series with Lauren, was to make sure that we were looking into something that felt grounded and real in psychology. Obviously, that’s what Riddler is doing. He thinks he’s doing the right thing. In fact, he’s inspired by this vigilante.

Lauren really was the one in the series who came up with that particular take as it related to Oz. All of it really stems from this idea that his ego is such that he desperately wants to be revered. He desperately wants love. And so that sense of wanting the neighborhood to revere you is to fill that void of never getting enough love….That’s the idea we’re trying to explore in Batman, too. There’s the simplistic version where he sees himself trying to save the city. But what is it he’s coping with psychologically? What happened to him? It’s funny, as Mattson {Tomlin] and I are finishing writing the second movie, the thing that I always think about is how Batman is not just trying to do something for the greater good. It’s the only way he can make sense of his own life. In a way, it’s saving him.

Why Battinson Sits Out The PenguinHe’s more of a specter in the city. I really wanted what we did in the first movie, and what we’re doing in the second movie, to be focused on Batman’s arc. A lot of the other movies, once they do their sort of origin tale—which, of course, is Batman and Bruce’s—then they almost pass the baton over to the rogues’ gallery in such a way that their story actually is the story. But I really want this to continue to be a Batman point-of-view series of movies. So one of the things that was really exciting about the opportunity to do a show was to let it really focus on that rogues’ gallery character and change points of view. The whole movie is done very deliberately from Batman and Bruce’s point of view. The only scenes that aren’t from his point of view are from Riddler’s point of view. And that was done to make you think for a moment: Wait, is that Batman’s or Riddler’s point of view? This was like: What if we could just go down that alley and follow Oz in the wake of what happened in the movie?

Courtesy of HBOWhy are characters like Cristin Milioti’s Sofia Falcone so damn good in The Penguin? “It’s important to me that all of these characters are doing what they’re doing out of personal motivation,” Reeves says.

The Secret Sauce of IP StorytellingI was very conscious about wanting to make the Gotham of The Batman a Gotham that was our world. Even though it’s a fictitious city, the idea was that it would be our Gotham. The interesting thing is: I had been approached before Batman and before Planet of the Apes about other franchises, and I couldn’t do them. I turned them down because I was like, “I don’t know what the way is.” I was really fortunate with Apes and with Batman that those two franchises, I can do something where I can connect personally. And then I’m not handcuffed anymore. I can find a path.

As a producer, I make sure that I’m working with people who have that same kind of personal connection to their work so that it isn’t just the IP. That’s not any judgment. For me, that’s survival….That’s what movies are, right? You go to a movie to have this empathic experience where filmmakers and actors put you in the shoes of people who you are not for a period of time. Then you go and experience it through them in this transportive way. To me, that is the ultimate goal. That’s what’s exciting to me about movies.

The Next GenerationI just love movies so much. Getting that bug as a kid, expressing myself, and having a place to tell stories, it was really an escape from the craziness of growing up, my family, all this kind of stuff. I just hope that that tradition continues. When I was growing up, movies were so important. And now we have to fight to make sure that movies and streaming content—whatever we want to call it, shows—can connect to people so that the next generation can be just as inspired to tell stories. I just hope that that happens, because I’m excited to see what stories younger people have. I want them to tell it with passion.